Showing posts with label Religion. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Religion. Show all posts

Sunday, November 17, 2013

"Merry Christmas!!" / "Happy Holidays!!" and Our One Size Fits All Culture


One size fits all policies--whether they be zero tolerance policies, mandatory minimum sentences, political correctness, or the equally inane fight against all political correctness--refuse to accept that most human beings have common sense. A six-year-old bringing a firearm to school is not equal to that same kid holding his thumb and forefinger in the shape of a gun. Some language is legitimately offensive--even if it isn't intended to be, or didn't used to be considered offensive--while other language really just isn't.

Someone wishing you a Merry Christmas is seldom if ever a slight against you or your faith, whatever it may be. Someone wishing you "Happy Holidays!" isn't, either. When stores make a policy that excludes either or only acknowledges one set of beliefs, they're not allowing good old common sense to rule the day. There is nothing wrong with hoping every customer enjoys all the holidays, including the ones they don't personally celebrate. And there's nothing wrong with offering holiday wishes based on the cues people offer, either. (A lot of times, you can figure out who celebrates what holiday based on clothing or other attributes.) Demanding that stores use any one particular kind of greetings and signage--whether all "Christmas" or all "Holiday"--is just questioning common sense.

I suspect that many believe in this "War on Christmas" nonsense because Christmas has been the dominant holiday for so long. Jews and others were just supposed to accept that numbers dictated that stores would have Christmas signage and offer Christmas greetings, and towns would have Christmas tree lightings and Christmas fairs. If those who didn't celebrate Christmas were lucky, there'd be some small recognition of their faith tucked in a corner somewhere out of the way...maybe. That some cities and towns, multi-state or multi-national chains and individual mom N pop stores have chosen to be more inclusive threatens those who want Christmas to remain at the top of the ladder. Every acknowledgement of those who don't celebrate Christmas is one less acknowledgement of the Christian faith. They call it tradition...but refusing to recognize that other faiths exist and deserve to be in the public square too is a bad tradition.


If it were up to me, we, the people would acknowledge and celebrate all sacred and secular holidays in the public square. Schools would teach about all religions, and children would learn the ethnic and religious traditions of everyone in their classes, their schools, their neighborhoods, and ultimately, the world.

I understand why this isn't possible--it's largely the same reason there is both political correctness AND the so-called "war on Christmas" &/or "the Christian faith." (For my money, the "War on Christmas" is just political correctness, Christian edition. Another interest group demanding that everyone give them the respect they think they deserve by virtue of the fact they exist. YMMV...) No matter how much we tried, some group--& more than likely every group--would think they were getting the short end of the stick somehow, or believe that some other group isn't worthy of the same respect as their own. It's a damned shame, but it's something we'll probably never get past... ...so rather than learning about and honoring all of our traditions and faiths, we can't honor any of them in our secular public square... It doesn't stop the complaining, obviously, but it does lessen it...

One size fits all.

Yay.

God bless us, every one.

Sunday, May 05, 2013

In Reply: Be A Model for Your Beliefs, and Learn From The Beliefs of Others, Too

In reply to a post and discussion titled "atheism and christianity friendships?" on the Nerdfighters ning.
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I believe it's important to expose oneself to different beliefs, religious and otherwise. It helps you learn about the world and to question all you think you know and believe, which is generally a good thing, whether the questions ultimately lead you to change or to confirm your beliefs. The key is respect for the people one speaks to or about, and tolerance for difference. Whatever your religious beliefs, there will always be those who are "going to Hell," or "wasting their lives taking cues from an invisible friend who doesn't exist," (depending). And while it's worthwhile to make some effort to save them from the "folly" of their beliefs (or lack of them), there comes a point where you just have to let them be as wrong as they choose to be... And that can be hard, especially for those who take their religious beliefs seriously (and that includes non-believers, too). It's difficult to watch someone you care about go down what you whole-heartedly believe to be a "wrong" path.

I tend to think you can't browbeat or force someone to change their beliefs, and there's little value in getting heated about it. Instead, be a model for your beliefs. Live your values--and sure, talk about them when appropriate--but don't become hostile when someone doesn't believe what you do, even if THEY become hostile toward you or your beliefs. Agree to disagree. Learn from them. Teach them too, if they're open to it, but accept that some otherwise wonderful people are just bound and determined to be wrong about God and faith...and there's nothing you can do about it. I still think it benefits both you and them to be in each other's lives, in spite of how dead wrong they are.

(Personally, I'm another of those Unitarian Universalist types and as such, I believe there are many roads to bliss, and that no Beneficent Force would ever refuse entry to anyone who tried, but got the particular song and dance wrong...but obviously, I may be sadly mistaken.)
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Posted Sunday, 5/5/13, 3:00 AM (or thereabouts...)

Friday, April 12, 2013

In Reply: "Geller has every right to speak. But free speech does not guarantee an audience, protection from criticism, or the use of someone else's soapbox." (Dishonest media, Pamela Geller, Bigotry, Free Speech)

In reply to the following three comments offered at the post Great Neck Synagogue Cancels Speech by Pamela Geller - Great Neck, NY Patch:
"The fact that you went to the state-run media confirms the fact that you're a low information voter. Did you happen to ask the police?"
and
"Not everybody agrees that it is bigotry. Why are you trying to rob people of the right to hear anything they want to.Are you the parents of those who wish to listen and formulate their opinions after hearing Ms.Gellar,"
and
"Geller's not a bigot, YOU ARE.

Geller speaks the truth about islam and the Left's joint group-grope against America and Israel, and you and the far left and jihadis threatened a riot at the synagogue, forcing the cancellation.

Keep it up, you will eventually get the violence you are aiming for, but you better have bought your toe tags by then, because you won't like the result."

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My reply:
"Not everybody agrees that it is bigotry."

Not everyone agrees that it isn't, either. So why would you want to rob people of the right to say they believe it is bigotry, in very much the same way as you accuse others of "robbing" Geller's "right" to speak. (Geller has every right to speak. What she doesn't have is a right to speak at a private venue that finds her speech offensive, or dangerous. Free speech does not guarantee an audience, or someone else's soapbox to stand on, either.)

"threatened a riot at the synagogue"

Any citation for that? Because again, no media source--including this one--is making any such allegation. The only person saying anyone was threatened is Pamela Geller, in her interpretation of the synagogue's decision. No one from the synagogue, or the media, or the local police has reported any confirmed threat to any person place or thing. (And with respect to Natalie's "state-run media" comment from yesterday, I'm pretty sure that Mr Jacques is not a tool of the government... Not positive, mind you, but pretty sure... YMMV...)
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Posted: 3:29 pm on Friday, April 12, 2013

Thursday, April 11, 2013

In Reply: Threats against the neighborhood, the children, or the Great Neck Synagogue? Where? (Pamela Geller, Bigotry, Dishonesty, Free Speech)

In reply to the following comment at the post Great Neck Synagogue Cancels Speech by Pamela Geller - Great Neck, NY Patch:
"The threats to the residents of the neighborhood, against their children, and against the synagogue are more real than Geller's unproven bigotry. Read her work and enlighten your ignorance. Then stand for her freedom of speech or most surely you will lose your own.
This synagogue stood alone against weeks of threats and intimidation. There must be a complete investigation of the threats and those responsible must be prosecuted. Freedom denied to one American is denied to all.
Ironically, these tactics have spread Geller's work to an enormously wider audience than that of one temple."

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I asked several media outlets--including this one [see e-mail appended below]--to document these supposed threats against the neighborhood, the children, or the synagogue, or to at least obtain statements from people associated with the synagogue saying that anyone was actually threatened. No media outlet or synagogue official has gone on the record with any threat. Make of that what you will.

Posted: 8:53 pm on Thursday, April 11, 2013
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E-mail:
To: rich.jacques@patch.com (and sent to several other media outlets who'd reported on the Geller controversy)

Great Neck Synagogue Cancels Speech by Pamela Geller

Pamela Geller, Jewishpress.com and other supportive social media outlets are implying that protesters threatened Sunday school children who attend classes at the synagogue, and that is why the synagogue board cancelled Pamela Geller's speech. Please interview the rabbi and others at the synagogue, and confirm or debunk that allegation. If you do find threats, please post specific examples if possible.

Wednesday, April 10, 2013

In Reply: "Bigotry has no place in a synagogue, in any house of worship, or anywhere else in America." (Pamela Geller, Free Speech, Bigotry, Religion)

In reply to Great Neck Synagogue Cancels Speech by Pamela Geller - Great Neck, NY Patch
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While I wish they'd done so because they believe bigotry has no place in their synagogue (or in any house of worship, or anywhere else in America, for that matter), I'm glad they cancelled her speech, if only because *I* believe there should be no place for bigotry in America, least of all in a house of worship.

Posted: 9:51 pm on Wednesday, April 10, 2013

Friday, August 03, 2012

In Reply: "Collective blame for individual action is a non-starter." (Chick-fil-A, Religion, Bad Thinkin')

In reply to Conservatives blast Chick-fil-A 'Tastes like hate' vandalism - latimes.com

Generalizing about whole groups based on the bad behavior of individual members (allegedly, anyway--I'm not saying that graffiti was planted, but it sure makes for a convenient meme) is the very building block of bigotry, whether the group is based on religious belief, sexual orientation, or political belief. Gay folks (or liberals) are no more responsible for that graffiti than folks opposed to abortion (or conservatives) are responsible for clinic bombings. Collective blame for individual action is a non-starter.
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Posted 8/3/12, 9:00 PM (or so)
===

I will say this, though... Like the idiot(s) who did the vandalism, the people beating up on the faithful in these comments and claiming to do so in the name of marriage equality are not doing anyone any good, and are not speaking for me, at all. The God I worship sees the inherent worth and dignity of all persons, including the ones who think He would ever condone treating anyone as less than perfect creations...or who don't believe in Him, at all.
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Posted 8/3/12, 9:10 PM (or so)

Wednesday, August 01, 2012

In Recognition of Chick-fil-A Appreciation Day

I don't support either the restaurant or the reason some folks are eating there today, but their free speech--while wrong in content, in my humble, and in spite of whiners who only appreciate the free speech of those who agree with 'em--is just as valuable as mine.

So, with that in mind, a Chick-fil-A Appreciation Day playlist, suitable for those eating at the place, and those protesting there, too...

Ain't Nobody Here But Us Chickens - The Stargazers
All Birds Look Like Chicken To Me - Sweet Papa Stovepipe
Back In The Chicken Shack (Live) - Phish
Betting Better Fake Chicken Meat Will Be As Good As The Real Thing - NPR Story of the Day Podcast
Chick Habit - April March
Chick Singers - Dan Bern - Fifty Eggs
Chick-A-Boom (Don't Ya Jes' Love It) - Daddy Dewdrop
The Chicken - Bill Williams
A Chicken Ain't Nothin' But a Bird - Cab Calloway
Chicken ain't nothing but a bird - Duck Baker
A Chicken Ain't Nothing But A Bird - Louis Jordan
Chicken And The Hawk - Cousin Joe, aka Joe Pleasant
Chicken blues - Mississippi John Hurt
Chicken Boy Polka - Those Darn Accordions! - Vongole Fisarmonica
The Chicken Dance - Lawrence Welk
Chicken Dog - John Scofield
Chicken Half - Sugarman 3
Chicken Heart - Arch Oboler - Drop Dead!
Chicken Heart - Bill Cosby
CHICKEN HUNTIN - FROGTHEDAWG - TEXAS CHAINSAW MASHACRE
Chicken In The Kitchen - The Robert Cray Band
Chicken Little - Push Down & Turn - H.O.R.D.E. Band To Band Combat
Chicken Outlaw - Wide Boy Awake
Chicken Roost Blues - Cliff Carlisle
Chicken Shack - Pinetop Perkins
Chicken Shack Boogie - Amos Milburn
Chicken Stuff - Hop Wilson
Chicken Stuff - Steve James
Chicken Town - James Mathus & His Knockdown Society
Chicken Wing Ft. The Demigodz [Explicit] - Eric Bobo
Chicken You Can Roost Behind The Moon - Stokes And Sane
Chickens - Junip
Chicklet Learns to Surf - Ben Vaughn - Psycho Beach Party OST
Chicklet Meets Surfers - Ben Vaughn - Psycho Beach Party OST
Chicklet Wipes Out - Ben Vaughn - Psycho Beach Party OST
The Chicks I Pick Are Slender And Tender - Louis Jordan
Chicky-Mo, Craney-Cro - Louis Jordan
Chips - Chicken - Banana Split (From Jamaica To Toronto: Soul Funk & Reggae 1967-1974) - Jo Jo & The Fugitives
Coop D'Etat: Farmers, Humane Society Partner On Chicken-Cage Revolution - NPR Story of the Day Podcast
Cotton Pickin' Chicken (Lost in Paradise) - Angel Baby
Congress Passes Amendment Guaranteeing Right To Chicken Done Right - The Onion Radio News
Slate's Explainer Podcast - Funky Chicken: Do American birds taste funny because we chlorinate them? By Nina Shen Rastogi
In New Orleans, A Fried Chicken Institution Revived - NPR: Story of the Day Podcast
Kitty's Rambles/Dowd's 9 Lives/Jenny's Chickens - Marc Gunn - MarcSONGS Podcast
Pregnant Circus Geek Now Biting Heads Off Chicken For Two - The Onion Radio News
Savoring The Spice In Kung Pao Chicken - NPR: Story of the Day Podcast
Slate: The Chick-fil-A Church - Dale Willman, Slate Magazine Daily Podcast
Swinging Chicken Ritual Divides Orthodox Jews - NPR: Story of the Day Podcast
Dig That Crazy Chick - Sam Butera & The Witnesses
Dixie Chicken - Little Feat
Do These Frogs Really Taste Like Chicken - Budweiser Lizards
Fried Chicken - Steve Vai
Funky Chicken - Marcus Miller, Steve Gadd, Eric Clapton, David Sanborn & Joe Sample Funky Chicken - The New York Jets
The Funky Chicken - Rufus Thomas
Funky Chicken Song [Techno] - Fast Food Rockers
Funky Chicken Stew - The Dayton Sidewinders
The Ghost And Mr. Chicken - The Tiki Tones
Grab a Chicken (Put It Back) - Peter Frampton - Fingerprints
The Greasy Chicken - Andre Williams & The Don Juans
Hippie Chick - SoHo
Huddled Chickens - Phillips, U. Utah - I've Got To Know
CHICKENS & OTHER CLUCKERS... - Intoxica Radio w/Howie Pyro
Kicks & Chicks - The Zipps
Marque-son's Chicken - Frank Zappa
Mr. Chicken Shit (alternate take) - The Soul Seven
Quarter Chicken Dark - Stuart Duncan; Chris Thile; Edgar Meyer; Yo-Yo Ma - The Goat Rodeo Sessions
Refried Funky Chicken - The Dregs 1
Robot Chicken - Les Claypool
Run Chicken Run - The Felice Brothers
Running With Chicken - Garfunkel and Oates - All Over Your Face
The Sad Chicken - Leroy & The Drivers
Shoo That Chicken - Bo Carter
Stay Away From My Chicken House - Gene Autry
Superchicken - Sheldon Allman & Stan Worth - Television's Greatest Hits Vol. 5 - In Living Color
That Chick's Too Young To Fry - Louis Jordan
Thunder Chicken - The Mighty Imperials
VLR 04 - How to be a Chicken - Rev. Davdson Loehr - Voices of Liberal Religion
Wasted Chicks - Chicks On Speed vs Kings Of Leon
Y'all Chickenhawks to Me - Elmo and the Monsters
5-Piece Chicken Dinner - The Beastie Boys
Pepito Chickeeto - Woody Woodpecker Presents

Tuesday, July 31, 2012

In Reply: Reading Into Speech, And Finding Exactly What You're Looking For

In reply to Allergic to Bull: It’s about Fascism: Why Everyone Should Eat At Chick-Fil-A On Wednesday

I'm with you on the Boston and Chicago incidents, but I think that to lump Mayor Lee in with them, one has to read too much into what he says. Whatever meaning he intended--and I agree that he might've intended to be threatening official Mayoral action to block Chick-fil-A from locating in San Francisco, and even that if he was intending to threaten the use of Mayoral power, he likely intentionally chose his words carefully so as not to be held accountable for the threat he was making--he did not make a threat clear enough to warrant lumping him in with the other two officials in the other two cities. There are other possible meanings, and you're choosing the most damning one, and attacking him for what you think he meant, probably.

Mostly this is a disagreement of opinion--you read one thing into his tweet, and I read another, and neither of us has any definitive proof--or will ever have any, unless the Mayor says something more to clarify the meaning of that original tweet (and even then, he could be walking back his original statement, right?)--but you're also suggesting that what he said--what you believe he said--is a violation of law.

I don't think so. I don't believe there is any law under which one can be prosecuted for what folks think a person meant in a statement as unclear as his. (And even if there were some way to prove he actually meant he would take official government action, I question whether there would need to be some overt act--or some showing that Chick-fil-A suffered some quantifiable damage, at least--before a case could be brought against Mayor Lee.) But I'm not a lawyer, so what do I know...

And while we're on the subject of law, I'm still perplexed by your cite of Virginia v Black, and your suggestion that one can find "the law of what counts as a threat" as a part of that decision. As you may've read, all I found when I perused the thing was the cite about "true threats," which involve clear expressions of the intent to commit unlawful violent acts. And if you're reading THAT into what Mayor Lee said, well, I'd be very surprised.

I'm a little worried about the accusation of Mayor Lee in terms of free speech, as well. If your interpretation of his meaning is wrong, you're defining down what an attack on free speech actually is--and chilling the speech of those who would disagree with Dan Cathy, or with those who would defend him (I'm sure you recognize how being casually accused of a crime can put a crimp in one's speech)--and I think that's very dangerous.

Finally, I'm certainly not going to agree that the verbal overreach of a couple of elected officials--which they already backed off from, in the face of a whole lotta pressure from, well, almost everyone--constitutes an attack on free speech that would cause me to advocate for eating at a Chick-fil-A restaurant in the name of striking a blow for the first amendment.

I'm pretty sure that Chick-fil-A will see a good size bump in their business for a little while (and on Wednesday, for sure). The thing is, buycotts tend to be short-term. People do their duty and make a point of making those purchases for a little while, then life sets in, and the McDonalds is a half a block closer, and... people in the buycott start purchasing like usual, again.
The customers Chick-fil-A gains over this issue will almost certainly give the company a bump, short term. The customers they lose will likely never come back.

That said, I sincerely hope you enjoy your chicken, sir. I hear it's dee-lish. (The whole boycott/buycott thing is academic for me... The nearest Chick-fil-A location for me to eat at or protest is like 50 miles away... ...and at this stage, I'm not willing to make a day of it, however strong my beliefs...)
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Submitted for "Allergic to Bull" moderator approval Posted July 31, 2012 2:59 PM (Actual post time, 8/1/12, 7:15 AM)

Monday, July 30, 2012

X-Post: Donald Douglas Lashes Out and Lies, 7/29/12 - Chick-fil-A, Free Speech, Right of Conscience

In the post Mayor Edwin Lee Warns Chick-fil-A on Coming to San Francisco — Lying Fascist Repsac3 Denies It, Shills for Left's Anti-Free Speech Thugs Donald Douglas rants and rages about supposed opinions of mine that I do not in fact have. He attributes beliefs and motivations to me that exist only in his eternally angry imagination, and periodically hops up on his little soapbox and screams them at whatever people are within earshot. I'd like to say this is a new low for Dr. Douglas, but sadly, it really isn't.

On the menu today are the various elected officials who have made verbal threats of official executive or legislative action to block new Chick-fil-A locations in their cities, in response to comments made by their CEO, Dan Cathy, and donations made to groups and organizations opposing marriage equality and homosexuality itself, both by members of the Cathy family personally and by the Chick-fil-A corporation.

In the first instance, Dr Douglas is upset by a tweet between me and Aaron Worthing, discussing something The Mayor of San Francisco, Ed Lee, tweeted. Here's Donald's version of the story:
So far all the reports out indicate that San Francisco Mayor Edwin Lee has warned Chick-fil-A about opening a store in the city.

See the San Franscisco Chronicle, "Mayor Ed Lee warns Chick-fil-A against coming to San Francisco":

San Francisco Mayor Ed Lee has joined in the growing chorus condemning Chick-fil-A for the national chicken chain’s much-publicized anti-gay views.

After mayors in Boston and Chicago recently expressed their disapproval with Chick-fil-A and its intolerance, Lee followed suit and took to his Twitter account late yesterday, firing off two successive tweets. The first one conveys his disappointment with the chain’s lack of values, and the second one takes it up a notch, suggesting that Chick-fil-A don’t even think about opening in San Francisco.
The mayor's tweets are embedded at the report.

It's clearly threatening. And the Los Angeles Times agrees, "San Francisco is the third city to tell Chick-fil-A: Keep out":

First Boston. Then Chicago.

The next city to tell Chick-fil-A to keep out? San Francisco.

Edwin M. Lee, mayor of the progressive city, tweeted Thursday night: "Very disappointed #ChickFilA doesn't share San Francisco's values & strong commitment to equality for everyone."

He also added a warning to his subsequent tweet: "Closest #ChickFilA to San Francisco is 40 miles away & I strongly recommend that they not try to come any closer."

Until Thursday, San Francisco had stayed mum on the debate, which began when Chick-fil-A's president, Dan Cathy, went on the record as saying his Atlanta-based chicken chain operated on biblical values and opposed same-sex marriage.
Pretty straightforward, obviously.

But not for fascist hate-blogger Walter James Casper III, a.k.a Repsac3, who attacks Aaron Worthing on Twitter with denials of the threat:

There's a whole lot there.

First off, if Donald Douglas believes that this tweet (or indeed any of the ones Dr. Douglas failed to include between Aaron and I, which I'll get to below) constitutes an "attack" on Aaron Worthing, it's obvious why he runs to legal and political authorities to protect him from unwanted blog comments, rather than deleting them and moving on, which is what most bloggers do. And obviously, the other characterizations of me are just as unsubstantiated and therefore nonsensical as they always are. No surprise there, either.

While we're on the subject of words, I note that both of the articles Dr. Douglas cites characterize the Mayor's second tweet as a "warning," rather than a threat.

I definitely concur that it was a warning. And, contrary to the way Donald Douglas is relating the difference of opinion between Aaron and I (whether because he did not read all the tweets, and shot off, uninformed and angry, or read them all, but did not understand the dispute, which once again calls his reading comprehension into question), it could be considered a threat, as well.

Here's the conversation in full. See if you can spot the parts that Donald Douglas failed to grasp:

AaronWorthing: The mayor of San Fran, the latest fascist to use official power to stifle unpopular speech ----> @mayoredlee pic.twitter.com/HodPQ6Ay (Picture link is to Mayor Lee's tweets--and particular to our purposes, the second one, where he says "Closest #ChickFilA to San Francisco is 40 miles away & I strongly recommend that they not try to come any closer.".)

repsac3: @AaronWorthing @mayoredlee Those there are just words, Aaron...and they don't even contain a threat of official action, far as I see

Up to now, Aaron has made an allegation that the Mayor has threatened to us "official power" to stifle unpopular speech, and I replied by questioning his allegation that there was any threat of "official action" by the Mayor. I thought at the time that Aaron's next tweet was continuing the discussion of threats in the context of "official power" or "action," but reading it over now, maybe he wasn't...

AaronWorthing: no, that is a clear threat as understood in ordinary English. @repsac3 @mayoredlee pic.twitter.com/NGgaWBpT

Whatever Aaron was thinking though, it's obvious what I was talking about:

repsac3: @AaronWorthing @mayoredlee We disagree. I'm opposed to those who ARE issuing threats of govt action--like anti-abortion TRAP laws, 2me...
repsac3: ...but saying stay out of this city isn't a threat of govt action. It's just speech

(I was limited by the 140 characters (or 280, I guess). But in case it was in any way unclear, my intent in the first tweet was to say that I saw the threats to use legal/political power against Chick-fil-A as the same as those conservative legislators and governors who have enacted TRAP laws -- impossible / costly to meet regulations about the size of janitor closets, hallway widths, staffing requirements, etc, that are COMPLETELY unrelated to the care or safety of anyone involved with the clinic, targeted at abortion clinics exclusively --that are designed to run clinics out of town via excessive regulation, thereby accomplishing what they cannot accomplish by outlawing abortion directly. Whether it's clinics or fast food chicken, government officials should not be employing excessive regulation to stop those businesses they morally oppose. The intent of the second tweet was to say that Mayor Lee hadn't made a threat to use such government action.)

AaronWorthing: Don't be naive. The law isn't. @repsac3 @mayoredlee

repsac3: @AaronWorthing I'll have to wait for the blog post, because that tweet says nothing to me. What threat, and what law?

AaronWorthing: @repsac3 the law of what counts as a threat. Read, e.g. Virginia v black.

(Needless to say, I did look it up, reading (or at least skimming) several sources. All I found concerning "what counts as a threat" was a citation defining “true threats" as "those statements where the speaker means to communicate a serious expression of an intent to commit an act of unlawful violence to a particular individual or group of individuals"

repsac3: @AaronWorthing not seeing the def of threat (other than cite of "true threat" which is about bodily harm). More of a pointer?

And finally in that last link, we get to the single exchange that Dr. Douglas highlighted. Did he read the rest, and either "willingly" or actually not understand them? Or did he just not read them, and think he had some kinda evidence that I was denying that anyone anywhere made any threats at all, and was defending, knee-jerk, everyone on my side of the political spectrum, whether right or wrong. (Y'know... like he does...) We may never know what facts he did and didn't bother to learn, but regardless, he was wrong.

My intent was clear throughout. I wasn't saying the Mayor did not issue a warning or threat of any kind, and never expressed any agreement with what he said, either. But there was no threat of "official action;" no indication that he intended to use or abuse his "official power" as Mayor to keep Chick-fil-A out of his town. Elected officials in other cities made such threats, and I spoke out against them. Often. I did not hear the same kind of threat to abuse his power from Mayor Lee. And that's what I said.

The despicable hater Repsac3 is lying again, no surprise.

A threat does not have to warn of physical harm. "Threat" could be financial injury, for example. In other words, a threat is any kind of caution, as Dictionary.com points out:

threat   [thret]
noun
1. a declaration of an intention or determination to inflict punishment, injury, etc., in retaliation for, or conditionally upon, some action or course; menace: He confessed under the threat of imprisonment.
2. an indication or warning of probable trouble: The threat of a storm was in the air.
3. a person or thing that threatens.
There's nothing there about a threat requiring violence. But that doesn't matter to Walter James Casper III. He lies about everything.

I did not lie.

I also did not claim that a threat required violence. If anyone did that at all, it was Aaron, in citing Virginia v Black and saying that a definition of "the law of what counts as a threat" could be found in that decision. ...though honestly, I'm pretty sure that Aaron was not suggesting that a threat requires violence, either. For one thing, it would weaken rather than strengthen his assertion that what Mayor Lee said was a threat.

I don't know what Aaron was trying to say in citing that decision. (Maybe he cited the wrong case, or maybe he just didn't think I'd bother to look, figuring that only one of us went to law school, and it wasn't me... or maybe there really is something in there in support of his claims, and I'm just not seeing it, not being a lawyer n'all...) I don't know, because Aaron never answered my tweet requesting more information. (If anyone else wishes to read the opinion and figure out what it is I'm missing within, the link follows: Supreme Court opinion, Virginia v. Black)

One can certainly read a threat to abuse official power into what Mayor Lee tweeted if one is so inclined, but it isn't a foregone conclusion or "Pretty straightforward, obviously" that use or abuse of official power is exactly what Mayor Lee intended. He could just as easily mean that the location would be a ghost town given the make-up of his city, and it wouldn't be worth their while to come. One thing I'm sure of, is that compared to the threats made by the people in Boston and Chicago--which far more clearly threatened the use and abuse of official power to stifle speech--what Mayor Lee said was pretty weak, no matter what his intent.

In any case, it isn't a lie to have a different opinion.

And if that wasn't bad enough, Donald's second accusation is downright preposterous:
And he organizes his hate campaigns with others online:


According to Donald, this tweet is evidence of my organizing a hate campaign with someone else online--in this case, this gentleman, Evan Hurst.

Ready for the truth?

Evan Hurst writes for Truth Wins Out which yes, is an organization that advocates for gay causes. He recently wrote a post OPPOSING the threats against Chick-fil-A by the Democratic politicians in Boston, Chicago (and maybe San Francisco, too... I cannot recall.) I was one of several people who commented at the post AGREEING with him, saying:
"I see the chick-fil-a issue regarding these government officials as being akin to the government officials passing immpossible/extremely costly-to-comply-with regulations on medical providers in the business of providing a service to which these government officials are opposed--abortions--and thus closing them down, or keeping them from opening. (And unlike the Chick-fil-a threats, these regulations against abortion providers are already in place in several cities and states...)

I'm all for protesting, and for the free speech and right of religious and moral conscience of all involved... ...but I cannot support targeting businesses with legally unnecessary regulations and restrictions because you oppose the business on moral grounds, whether it's anti-abortion legislators targeting clinics or pro-marriage equality legislators targeting fast food chicken."
When I went back a day or two later to read what others had said in the comments, the post and all commentary had completely disappeared. I tweeted the author, replying to his tweet "advertising" the post initially:

repsac3: @EvanHurst What became of this honest post about the Boston and Chicago elected officials bad response to chickfila? #disappeardapointed

EvanHurst: @repsac3 It went away. Not by my decision. Sorry. :( If you want a copy, I'll gladly send it, as I did save it.

repsac3: @EvanHurst Would love a copy, thanks. Reader commentary below--both 4 & against--was good, too. Pulling it was BAD, imo. Tell the bosses.
repsac3: @EvanHurst Just occurred to me you may need an e-mail address to pass along the Chickfila article: repsac3blogs@gmail.com Thanks again...

There's a saying that "if you're looking for hate (or bigotry, or racism, or other examples of bad behavior), you'll find it."

Donald Douglas is proof that even when you're looking for it, you don't always find it, however hard you try. That's some kinda hate, there, talking to an author that wrote a post that largely AGREES with Dr. Douglas' position, complimenting him on it--and expressing my disagreement with the idiots that removed it--and accepting his offer to get a copy of the post.

When you insist on behaving as dumb as a bag of hammers in furtherance of your paranoid attacks on those who disagree with you, everything looks like a nail, I guess. Hate and persecution, even in complimentary tweets to an author. Yeesh.
That's something I've mentioned previously, regarding Repsac's intimidation and stalking campaign against this blog.
That Dr. Douglas actually believes and so often repeats this in public says far more about him than me.
He's a liar and an Internet predator. People should avoid him, block him on Twitter, and report him to the proper authorities.
That, too...

My conduct toward Donald Douglas and pretty much everyone else is posted for the world to see and to judge.

I quote and cite what others have to say, and then respond with what I think and believe. I'm not perfect by any means, but I seldom call folks names or make allegations about their inter-species parentage. Most of my comments are respectful and on-topic.

Given the skewering Dr. Douglas so often gets--the result of fact-challenged attack posts like the one I'm responding to here, generally--I can understand why he doesn't like me. What is less clear is why he keeps lashing out at me unprovoked, in the first place.

I may never know...

UPDATE 7/30/12, 12:25 PM:
Quick addendum to this. After I posted it, I sent Aaron Worthing a tweet letting him know I had posted about our discussion, in case he wanted to clarify or take issue with anything I wrote:

repsac3: @AaronWorthing Blogged about a twitter exchange we had the other day. Read, respond, or ignore, as you wish: http://americannihilistblog.blogspot.com/2012/07/donald-douglas-lashes-out-and-lies.html …

There's been no response from him so far, but when I checked his twitter feed, I noticed that he had uncritically retweeted Donald's dishonest post yesterday:
While it was long before this response went live, I'm still very disappointed in him. He struck me as more honest--or at least less knee-jerk partisan--than that...

Even still, I hope he comes by to discuss it with me and show me where I'm wrong...


Links:
American Power: Mayor Edwin Lee Warns Chick-fil-A on Coming to San Francisco — Lying Fascist Repsac3 Denies It, Shills for Left's Anti-Free Speech Thugs

Inside Scoop SF � Mayor Ed Lee warns Chick-fil-A against coming to San Francisco

San Francisco is the third city to tell Chick-fil-A: Keep out - latimes.com

American Power: California Penal Code Section 646.9 on Criminal Harassment and Cyberstalking: Statement of Warning to Hate-Blogger Walter James Casper III

American Nihilist: Donald Douglas - Reading Comprehension

virginia v black - Google Search

VIRGINIA V. BLACK

Supreme Court opinion, Virginia v. Black
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An American Nihilist X-post

Thursday, July 26, 2012

In Reply: Legally Unnecessary Regulations and Restrictions as a Way to Legislate Morality

In reply to Truth Wins Out -

Note: This link used to lead to a post by Evan Hurst--"As good as it feels to have politicians telling Chick-Fil-A to get lost, it's actually not okay http://bit.ly/MMeAUo #p2 #lgbt"-- but the post, as well as some powerful back and forth by the readers in the comment section, was disappeared by some person or persons at Truth Wins Out, which yes, is pretty ironic. (Those persons do not include the author, who said the decision was out of his hands--but offered to send me a copy, which yes, I intend to repost here, under the "sometimes it's better to ask forgiveness than permission" theory. I did not ask Evan whether it would be ok, and thus did not put him in the position of letting me down or going against the wishes of the site he writes for, either. If/when I get a copy, it will appear below--unless the author includes a request that I not share it when he sends the post, of course, in which case I will report that.

Either way, my reply to the disappeared Truth Wins Out post and reader commentary appears below:
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I see the chick-fil-a issue regarding these government officials as being akin to the government officials passing immpossible/extremely costly-to-comply-with regulations on medical providers in the business of providing a service to which these government officials are opposed--abortions--and thus closing them down, or keeping them from opening. (And unlike the Chick-fil-a threats, these regulations against abortion providers are already in place in several cities and states...)

I'm all for protesting, and for the free speech and right of religious and moral conscience of all involved... ...but I cannot support targeting businesses with legally unnecessary regulations and restrictions because you oppose the business on moral grounds, whether it's anti-abortion legislators targeting clinics or pro-marriage equality legislators targeting fast food chicken.
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Posted July 26, 2012 10:27:14 PM EDT

In Reply: The Answer to Speech is More Speech

Revised and extended, in reply to No More Mister Nice Blog: WHAT WOULD BE THE OUTCOME OF THE WAR WE MAY BE STARTING HERE?, about Chick-fil-A, and the aldermen and mayors making threats to use their political power and legal means to keep them out of their area:

It's one thing to say "don't eat there" (or even to say "I'm opposed to your setting up shop in my city," though that's right on the line). It's another to use political/legal might to forbid them from doing business in a particular city/town...

If they were stopping gay folks from eating or working there--which I'm pretty sure is ALREADY against the law--I could see trying to run them out of town unless they stopped doing that.

But really, all the guy did was express the opinion of his faith which, like it or not, sees homosexuality as a sin. While I don't share that opinion myself, and will do all I can to avoid financially or otherwise rewarding those who believe and express it, religious freedom and the right of conscience allow him his beliefs, just as they allow me mine.

One has to meet speech with speech and action with action, which is to say, as long as Chick-fil-A and their CEO is using speech--talking about his beliefs, donating to political and religious organizations in furtherance of his beliefs--political figures should respond the same way; speaking out, and donating/urging donations to organizations and groups in favor of his/her goals. Chick-fil-A has every right to speak, and should not face official government punishment for what they say.

If Chick-fil-A were violating anti-discrimination laws, THAT would be the time for government action. I am aware of no evidence that they are, though the company must be aware that many eyes will be on them and that it isn't only the right who engages in video stings.

Nothing prevents citizens (including elected officials) from speaking out or protesting in favor of or against marriage equality or any other issue. Companies who take a stand on controversial issues--even if they do nothing more than send out a press release--have to know they're going to gain some customers and lose others, whatever stands they take. There is nothing wrong with "voting your values" by spending more money with companies who share your values and less with those who do not. If money is speech, there's no reason yours shouldn't help you say the things you think need saying.

As an exit question, though... How is what these mayors are threatening to do ANY DIFFERENT from what certain republican legislators and governors are doing as regards abortion providers, setting up trap laws that regulate every aspect of the clinics and providers in such a way that they cannot meet them, and thus will have no choice but to close... The answer, of course, is that there's ZERO difference, except that these Republican governors and legislators have actually done what these anti-chickfila mayors are only threatening to do, even if some people choose to stick their fingers in their ears in a desperate attempt at willful misunderstanding and denial...

Finally, there is a line between religious beliefs and bigotry, on both sides of this issue.

As I said above, the interviews Dan Cathy gave expressed his support for the religious tenets of his faith. While my faith and my personal moral compass don't agree with those tenets, he didn't say anything hateful or bigoted. (I have since learned about donations Cathy and the Chick-fil-A corporation have made to more extreme anti-homosexual causes, whose stated beliefs and concrete actions go further than much of Cathy's religion has chosen to go, and yes, I do find those donations more problematic.)

On the other hand, not every person who speaks out against Chick-fil-A is an anti-Judeo-Christian bigot, either. It is possible to say "I disagree with the church on this issue" without actually hating God and everything Jesus stood for. Even being an atheist isn't an expression of hate. (Some folks claim it's another kind of faith, and thus should be protected by religious freedom.)

As I've said elsewhere, I have no problem with 99% of what faiths other than mine preach and teach. People can believe as they wish, and live according to the customs of their faith, with my blessings. The tolerance stops when you try to legislate aspects of your faith into secular law, forcing those to don't share your church's understanding of God and morality to nevertheless live as though they do. It's fine for individuals to choose to live according to what their Bible and preacher tells them. It's also fine for individuals--especially individuals who don't go to your church--to reject the teachings of your Bible and preacher, whether in favor of what their preacher teaches, or in favor of their own moral code. Religious freedom goes both ways.
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Posted THURSDAY, JULY 26, 2012, 7:23 PM

Monday, July 23, 2012

In Reply: When Eagle (Scouts) Attack (or, of loyalty oaths and litmus tests)

In reply to I Am Not the Best Kind of Citizen - Popehat
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I left Troop 106, Huntington, NY, when the scoutmaster told my friend--an atheist--that he had to leave the summer camp out and quit the troop if he refused to attend one of the Sunday services. He packed up and left, and I left with him. (I'm guessing this was 1979 or '80.)

There is very little chance I ever would've become an Eagle scout, and there's even a good chance I would've quit scouting altogether anyway... but I was very proud of my friend for standing up for his right of conscience that day--I probably would've picked a service and gone, were I in his shoes--and I'm glad to this day that I left with him.

I can understand institutions and groups who want to instill values in their members, including particular religious or sociopolitical values. What I cannot understand--and refuse to be a part of--are institutions and groups who refuse to allow people admittance unless they subscribe to those particular values at the outset. I've never been a fan of Loyalty Oaths and litmus tests...
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Posted Jul 23, 2012 @5:56 pm
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The whole discussion is pretty fascinating, whatever your views on the Boy Scouts or religious faith. If you're interested, I suggest reading this whole post, including the comment section (That link again was: I Am Not the Best Kind of Citizen - Popehat) as well as this post: Atheist Scout Booted from Scouting - Beliefnet.com (my friend obviously wasn't the only one) and the follow-up post at Popehat: Guest Post: An Eagle Scout's Thoughts On The BSA's Policies | Popehat (including the comment section)

The original Popehat post was inspired by Eagle Scouts stand up to the Boy Scouts of America: *UPDATED* - Boing Boing, which talks about the BSA's stand on homosexuality, and what a number of Eagle Scouts are doing in protest. Some of the letters bring tears to my eyes.

For the record, while I'd like for BSA to open up and change their policies regarding religious faith and homosexuality, they are a private organization, and can set their membership rules according to the values they wish to instill in their members. I also support the laws that prohibit some government entities from working with them as long as they continue to forbid membership to protected classes of people. I view them the same way I do religious faiths and denominations other than my own; they have every right to believe as they do, but I have just as much right to reject their teachings in favor of my own. The BSA are not bigots, but their beliefs do conflict with American values regarding equality, as well as with the beliefs of my faith regarding the inherent worth and dignity of all persons.

Sunday, June 10, 2012

In Reply: It's OK For People to be COMPLETELY WRONG...and still see them as worthwhile human beings. (Allergic to Bull, Bigotry...or not)

In reply to this most excellent post, which deserves reading in full: Allergic to Bull: On Romney’s Mormonism and Religious Tolerance (Honestly, it doesn't have much to do with Romney or Mormonism, except as inspiration...)
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Straight on double-plus right, sir...

Many (most?) religions preach and teach that theirs is the one true path to all good things (however they define that), and many go further and say that those who don't follow their particular path will never get there... While it's possible for such beliefs to lead to bigotry--especially when governments or other institutions of power (including certain religious institutions themselves, ironically) get involved--the beliefs themselves are not bigoted.

I have this hippie dippy book called Das Energi, by Paul Williams (whattaya want, I'm a lib) that talks about the ability to discriminate as being key to the ability to see and perceive, and suggests that we draw our lines between people with disappearing ink. See the differences between us (be they religious, political, ethnic/heritage, ...), sure, but don't take them beyond the situations where they actually matter.

There has to come a point where it's ok for other people to be completely wrong about something--because they're not the same religion or denomination as you, or vote for candidates in the other party, or like mushrooms on their pizza--and still treat them as fellow citizens and worthwhile human beings deserving of respect.

(On that other thing... You was robbed and wronged, and I hope you get your rights back very soon. While I have issues with the partisan bent and allegations of collective guilt that some in your corner are trying to put on the thing, I unequivocally support free speech for all, even folks I probably don't much agree with... The best (and only) answer for speech you don't like or agree with is lots more speech... 'nuff said.)
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Submitted for blog owner approval Posted: June 10, 2012 7:43 AM

Sunday, July 31, 2011

X-Post: The Best (Not-So-New) Thing In The World (Faith)

I have little to add to this, except to say that it gives me hope, and bolsters my faith...

Visit msnbc.com for breaking news, world news, and news about the economy

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Wingnuts and Moonbats X-post

Saturday, August 07, 2010

Conservative Bigotry Against Muslims... ...Again.

If there's one thing Dr Douglas at American Power wants you to know, it's that some conservatives are proud to be bigoted against Muslim prayer facilities.

On top of that, it's not like conservatives HAVEN'T objected to the actual construction of Muslim facilities at military installations. Imam Saifulislam, who as far as I can tell is the only Muslim cleric being cited by Salon and Think Progress, was at the center of controversy in 2006 when an "Islamic Prayer Center" was being established at the United States Marine Corps training center at Quantico, Virgina. See, "Taxpayers fund Islamic center: Prayer building on Marine base not really mosque, officials say." And note the key information at the passage:
An announcement that the U.S. Marine base at Quantico, Va., has refurbished a building to be used as a prayer room for Muslim soldiers and civilians on base is a "bad signal," one critic has concluded.

The Marines announced earlier this summer that one of the buildings on the base had been repainted so that Muslims would have a place to pray and hold religious services

The new "Islamic Prayer Center" is the first of its kind on a Marine base, and "serves to express the Marine Corps' recognition of diversity among service members and the commitment to provide continued support to all Marines regardless of race, religion, ethnicity or gender," the base announcement said.

However, Jihad Watch director Robert Spencer said he wonders why the Marines do not seem concerned such facilities might to used to generate anti-American sympathies.

"It's going to go up as part of a testament to American multiculturalism and so on without any indication of the possibility that this could be a source of what we're fighting against," he said. "It just sends a bad signal."

At the dedication ceremony, Deputy Defense Secretary Gordon England praised the estimated 4,000 Muslims in the U.S. military. Joining him were leaders of the Council on American Islamic Relations.

CAIR describes itself as America's largest Muslim civil liberties group and boasts 32 offices, chapters and affiliates nationwide and in Canada. Its mission, it says, is to enhance the understanding of Islam, encourage dialogue, protect civil liberties, empower American Muslims and build coalitions that promote justice and mutual understanding.

However, CAIR is a spin-off of the Islamic Association for Palestine, identified by two former FBI counterterrorism chiefs as a "front group" for the Palestinian terrorist group Hamas. Several CAIR leaders have been convicted on terror-related charges.

"It is sadly ironic and lost on most that the plan to dedicate the prayer center and build a new mosque was approved by military leaders occupying a building that was attacked on 9/11 – the Pentagon – where more than 100 of its occupants were killed on that day," was the conclusion of those at Homelandsecurityus.com, a private security organization.
Justin Elliot and Think Progress might want to revise their posts. Robert Spencer (along with Pamela Geller) is among the leading opponents of the New York Mega Mosque. Thus, not only is there not a "mosque" at the Pentagon, but an earlier initiative to establish a fully designated "Islamic Prayer Center" met with the same kind of opposition that we're now seeing with the Cordoba Center. I'd add as well that the same folks who protest the erection of Islamic victory mosques have stressed repeatedly their respect for freedom of religion. Imam Saifulislam's Pentagon prayer services allow Muslim service-members to worship their faith as fully protected members of America's pluralist religious order. The U.S. did not prohibit Islam after 9/11. And our armies in the field are working with Muslim populations in Afghanistan, Iraq and around the world to defeat militant jihadis who kill indiscriminately, regardless of faith.

Mega Mosque opponents are asking Muslim religious leaders to exercise their rights responsibly. No one is attempting to take away those rights.

The essays at Salon, Daily Kos, and Think Progress are simply additional examples of the anti-intellectual smear tactics disguised as "debate" that are found routinely on the left. Just watch. More people will die from this kind of conservative-bashing. Talk about political opportunism. It's pretty sick.

"the same folks who protest the erection of Islamic victory mosques have stressed repeatedly their respect for freedom of religion."
We respect all religions... We just don't want the muzzies to have a place to pray...

I see... Allowing moderate Muslim Americans, including those who've joined the military and sworn to defend this country, to build mosques and prayer centers would be allowing them to exercise their rights irresponsibly, I guess...

I've said it before and I'll say it again, Pamela Geller and Robert Spencer, as well as the idiots like Donald Douglas who follow and defend them, are bigots, plain and simple. To them, Muslims--including American Muslims--are not as worthy as the rest of us, and don't deserve the same rights and freedoms. The lip service about respect for all faiths is lovely, but it ain't worth spit when you watch the things these creatures say and do when faced with real life situations, like building places where Muslims can gather and pray. Any American who objects to tossing a coat of paint on a building so that the Muslim Americans serving as marines have a space on the base large enough for them to gather and pray, simply because they're Muslim, has something really wrong with them. If objecting to their having a place to pray isn't taking away their rights, it's only because the pleas fell on deaf ears and they got their prayer center. Personally, I'm glad these fools didn't object to Ramadan prayers in the Pentagon, whether held in a dedicated mosque or an unused conference room. One can only presume that they didn't know... I can't speak for all of 'em (mostly because I feel slimy enough after having to wade through just these two), but Geller and Spencer knew, and Geller and spencer objected (of course... I guess Douglas can add this to his list o' Judeo-Christian Neocon American pride): Pentagon Submits to Islam - Atlas Shrugs, and West: Ramadan at the Pentagon - Jihad Watch.

There is something sick alright, but it's the bigotry against Muslims about which some folks on the right are so proud to express to their readership...

(Crossposted at American Nihilist)

Related:
memeorandum
RealClearPolitics - The Mosque Controversy & Religious Freedom

Nerd Score (Do nerds score?)